Carys x self F2

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Carys x self F2

Postby ryferre » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:47 am

In my attempts to discover the alleles in Carys I am approaching my third generation in Carys x self. I am so excited because I have some blooms on their way! YEAH!


***As a side note the plants have so far shown a smaller growth habit than what I have seen in the original Carys. The leaves are much more narrow, only reaching about 1 - 1.5 inches in width and about 9 inches in length. The leaves are highly wavy which makes the plant look stunning in my opinion.

Because I will have some variegates blooming at the same time- I am planning a cross to try to get a "smaller variegate". Wouldn't that be awesome?

It is unfortunate that variegates are inherited solely from the seed parent.

I would love to introduce variegated form to the kentianensis(did I spell that right?- could go check but oh well) species.

Ryan
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Carys x self F2

Postby Xena » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:23 am

I have done a great deal of hybridizing with variegated streps. A variegated seed parent is more likely to produce like ofspring. However, I have been getting them in odd places recently.

Escents(scented seed parent x variegated pollen parent) has produced several variegated ofspring when pollinated by a varie. Incl. one that is scented.

I also have had varies pop up in breeding from parents that have no known variegation behind them. It has happened in a few breedings from the same green leafed seed parent - who was NOT used with any variegate. And also when selfed.

From talking to other hybridizers, I am hearing they are getting unexpected varies also. Maybe it's something in the water.LOL.

Even so breeding a variegated to variegated doesn't guarantee you will get them.

All of which makes strep breeding one surprise after another.

I'd love to see you reduce size. Xena
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Postby elinh » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:11 pm

May I ask how many plants you save from each time you sow seeds?

...and what is "alleles"?
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Postby Carol222 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:37 pm

Hi, Elinh,
An allele is one of a pair of genes. They are on the same spot (loci) on each of two homologous chromosomes, one from the mother, one from the father. Each allele codes for the same gene, but each allele might have different information. For example, one allele might be for purple colored flower, which is dominant in streps, and designated P, while the other allele might be for a white flower, and recessive, and designated p. If the plant is PP or Pp it will have a purple flower, while if it is pp it will have a white flower.
I think it is spelled allel in Swedish.
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Postby ryferre » Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:21 am

It looks like my flowers will open in time to be crossed with an excellent candidate that is variegated-- Iced Amythest Showoff!!!

The unfortunate thing about most variegates is this---they have a low bloom count. I would love some better blooming genes. I may actually introduce some better blooming genes on a variegated plant and backcross until I get both "lots of blooms, smaller foliage, and strong flower stems". He he he

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Postby dale4streps » Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:54 pm

Ryan,

Since most of the variegated streps have large flowers, I think it'll be a tremendous challenge to get a variegated strep with an abundance of flowers per stem. Michael Kartuz told me many years ago that nothing good comes from crossing big flowering streps with smaller flowering streps. Ignoring his advice I learned that breeding a strep with a multitude of flowers per stem with a strep that has 2 large flowers per stem, will usually yield large leaf plants with 2 large flowers per stem. Selfing those still gets the breeder large flowers. I've done this crossing Texas Hot Chili and Big Yolk. Very disappointing.

A couple of years ago I put pollen from Heartland's Singing Guppies which has two parents with an abundance of small flowers (S. Gloria x S. dunnii) onto the variegated 'Iced Canadian Sunset'. I hoped for variegated leaves with a multitude of flowers per stem. What I got were 100% solid green leaves with 2 large flowers per stem. Ok, so I selfed one of the seedlings expecting variegation and oodles of flowers on at least one seedling! Nope, no variegation and again 2 large flowers per stem.

I also selfed Thad Scaggs' Jaco's Gem x variegated seedlings and got large flowers and no variegation. In fact I selfed the selfing and still got big flowers and no variegation.

When big flower x small flower is crossed, something is going on to prevent lots of flowers per stem. Do you have any ideas what might be happening?
Dale in Illinois
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Postby ryferre » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:23 am

I know that most forms of variegation in streps that are "stable" are only inherited through the mother "egg cell". This inheritance cannot be passed on except through the mother cell.

Bad Traits vs. Good Traits

Walter R. Fehr wrote an exellent book called "Principles of Cultivar Development"- though his book is usually referenced for crop plants the genetic principles still apply.

He outlines a wonderful way to help get the traits "wanted". This is called a Four-Parent Population.

" A four-parent poplulation can be formed by mating (P1 x P2) x (P3 x P4). This mating is commonly referred to as a double cross or a four way cross. In the mating of two single crosses, each of the parents contributes an average of 25 percent of the alleles in the final population.

A second method for the formation of a four-parent population is the mating [(P1 x P2) x P3] x P4. The genetic contribution of the parents to the final population is not the same. The parents of the initial two way cross, P1 and P2, have an average gentic contribution of 12.5 percent each, P3 contributes 25 percent, and P4 contributes 50 percent."

Hopefully all this is making sense. I am using the second method. P1 is my "unnamed but cool seedling" and P2 is Iced Amethyst Showoff. Then I will use another high flower producer such as Crystal Ice for P3 and finally another high flower producer for P4.

Yes, that is a lot of generations but hey--- Wouldn't the end result be stunning? This way those LARGE one or two flowered stems ony contribute 12.5 percent of their genes to the progeny.

***The tricky part is--- The mother plant in all crosses would have to be a variegate.

Ryan

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Postby dale4streps » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:00 pm

Ryan,

Oh! By pure instinct I'm hoping to do a four-parent population in working towards small strep hybrids. (S. Fernwood's Minuet x Lemon Curd) x (S. lilliputana x S. meyeri). Now FM is S. lilliputana x Little Gem, so I hope in this cross to take advantage of an extra dose of lilliputana genes.

As of today my best small hybrids are (S. lilliputana x Little Gem) x self. I'll have a photo posted in about a week that'll have people cheering. So I'll use them also in a four-parent population. I'm worried about too much inbreeding if I go for an F3 of any of the S. lilliputana x Little Gem selfings. They won't get me any new colors.
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Postby ryferre » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:03 am

Dale--

I will be watching for sure! Inbreeding can cause undesirable results(for a cultivar destined for sale or show) however- often inbreeding is done to isolate a rare yet useful gene. Then a four parent cross is made to introduce other "good" genes. This book is really invaluable in my opinion since it outlines almost anything you can think of with breeding plants! I LOVE IT!



GUESS WHAT-- BOTH OF MY FLOWERS OPENED ON THE SAME DAY! YEAH! That means---I get to cross them tomorrow- hopefully! "Get ready stigma because here comes papa pollen!"

Ryan
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Postby dale4streps » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:26 pm

Ryan, It's been my experience that the stigma on streps are most receptive (get the most viable seeds) if one doesn't pollinate until the 7th day that the flower has been open. I also wasn't sure if you knew that breeding a young strep's first flowers might lead to the death of the plant. Yes, it'll live until the pod has ripened, but often does not thrive. This is particularly true for variegated streps. Back when Canterbury Surprise and my Ice/Iced hybrids were new and exciting, people were using them as a mothers as soon as the first flowers bloomed. We noticed particularly on Canterbury Surprise that the plant became sort of dull looking. Then after the seed pods ripened, the plant died.

I wait until the second leaf puts out flowers, then pollinate those. If I have a second back-up plant, then I go ahead and use one of them as a mother.
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Postby ryferre » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:17 pm

I am using the pollen from "Unnamed" to pollinate Iced Amythest-- so I don't see any problem other then---

My first flower on "unnamed" only has four petals-- ha ha! I love freaks of nature--- However the other flowers which will be opening up in the next few days are "normal" from what I can tell.

The first flower opened yesterday-- It is beautiful! Lovely pink with deep pink stripes! I need to take a picture to post but I have been WAY busy! Soon-- very soon!

Thanks for the "seven days", I was wondering when they are most fertile.

Ryan
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