Fantasy x Fantasy = disappointment

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Fantasy x Fantasy = disappointment

Postby dale4streps » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

I crossed two fantasy flowers Tarjar Roger W x Spin Art and had high hopes! If you take a look at the Photo Album you'll see that I got an extremely bright magenta colored flower, 4 flowers per stem, but plain, plain, plain!

I've had very limited success getting fantasy flowers when crossing fantasy x fantasy. Most who get something with good fantasy self the hybrid. I don't know what goes on when two fantasy hybrids are crossed because I rarely get any fantasy markings.

Dale in Illinois not doing the happy hybridizer's dance
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Postby dale4streps » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:33 pm

A second flower has opened and it, too, has no fantasy.

Dale
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Postby Gessiejunkie » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:29 pm

Dale,

I've often wondered about fantasies, myself--if fantasy x fantasy doesn't give a high percentage of fantasies, then what's up? We seem to think of fantasies in streps as being like fantasies in violets. I wonder if they are more like chimeras? The colors of both mother and father, expressing themselves side by side, rather than as a blend? If that's the case, then there would be no breeding for them--they would have to be "happy accidents", unless we did something to influence their genetic structure. Now, I know, there is a certain vendor out there that has quite a few of them for sale, so I could be wrong, but maybe that's the case. After all, I have seen a certain violet vendor that has more than her share of her own chimera violets--maybe she's treating the plants with something. Is there a strep "parent" out there that you know to be relatively unstable? That sports often? Perhaps that would be the place to start looking for fantasies, either crossing it with itself, or with another unstable strep. I don't know who the parents are of Tarjar's Roger W or Spin Art, so I may be talking out of turn--just thinking out loud, as it were... :doh:

Sharon
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Postby dale4streps » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:51 am

Sharon, I asked a successful fantasy hybridizer what his secret was and he said all of his are selfings. So, for whatever reason, fantasy x fantasy is not as cooperative as a selfing. Today I had the third flower open and no fantasy. One would think Spin Art of all flowers would pass on those genes!

Dale
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Postby Carol222 » Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:14 pm

Hi, Dale,
Sorry about your disappointing results. Let us travel back to happier times...
If Canterbury Surprise is a tetraploid and Winter Dreams is not (Idon't know, couldn't find it), then are Iced Amethyst Showoff and Iced Pink Flamingo triploids?
I know I'm mixing up forums (fora?) here.
I know how you feel about the disappointments. I finally got a sort of cute one, but not that different.
Carol
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Postby dale4streps » Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:35 pm

Carol,

What I know about Winter Dreams is that it was a variegated seedling that popped up among some plants that Michael Kartuz was growing about 25 years ago. So it's a regular hybrid with a mutation...not a manipulated xray mutation done to seeds by a dentist like Canterbury Surprise.

Otherwise I'm afraid the diploid/tetraploid stuff is over my head.

A friend of mine did get a beautiful fantasy from using pollen from the Spin Art I brought to my local AV club meeting. I need to ask him who the mother is. He gave me a leaf, so it came true from leaf propagation and bloomed today for the first time. I'll wait until it completely opens and take a photo.

Dale

Dale
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Postby Carol222 » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:14 pm

Dale,
I can't wait to see a photo of the new fantasy.
Have you or others bred Iced Amethyst Showoff and Iced Pink Flamingo successfully? If so, to what?
Carol
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Postby dale4streps » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:08 pm

I crossed Iced Pink Flamingo with....drum roll here....Heartland's Singing Guppies. Nothing had variegation and all flowers were large. I was shocked! Heartland's Singing Guppies is Gloria x S. dunnii. So I selfed one of the seedlings hoping to get back variegation and multiple flowers. Nope, didn't work. I know, people think I'm always successful in my hybridizing adventures, but I'm guessing I throw away 300 seedlings a year.

If IPF or IAS were crossed with one of the Crystal series, that could prove interesting because the seedlings would have a rosette shape. If one can get variegation on the rosette shape, it'd be gorgeous even when not in flower. Oh...Nerys ...that's a rosette and the flower color on variegated foliage would look cool.

Dale in Illinois
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Postby Gessiejunkie » Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:42 am

Dale,

Forgive me if I ramble on a bit, but I've got several questions on my mind with this whole "genes" thing...

Ok, if all fantasy streps are selfings, were they selfings of other fantasies, or of solid color streps? If it's the latter, that would indicate to me that fantasy is a recessive trait. If I remember my biology right, you have to have recessive x recessive for it to be expressed. Ok, say that's so. Then, if you find 2 streps that both have the recessive for fantasy (you'd have no way to know--they don't express it), then their progeny should have fantasy. So, say you selfed your new hot pink offspring (it should have the recessive trait, given that both of its parents do, even though it doesn't show it)--shouldn't that give you fantasy?

Still thinking about genes, but on a different tangent--remember how I crossed Canterbury Surprise and Iced Amethyst Showoff? Didn't expect anything too exciting, other than some variegated plants to cross to other stuff later. I know you said you were getting about 8% variegation in your crosses. Even given I used 2 variegated parents, I would think that would only double my odds, at best. Ready for this? I haven't done an "official head count", but eyeballing it tells me that about 90% of the seedlings are variegated! Now, here's what I'm wondering: I didn't put these seeds down right after the cross--they sat, wrapped in paper, unprotected, for the better part of a year. Perhaps a good percentage of the "green" seeds died off and left mostly variegated ones? Or, as the variegated ones seem to take longer to sprout, could it be that it takes them longer to develop seeds in the first place? The seeds start out programmed to be green, but the longer it is before they have good conditions to sprout, the more of them that mature into variegated seeds? Does that make any sense? :idea_thinking:

Sharon
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Postby dale4streps » Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:04 am

Sharon,

To answer the first question, the hybridizer said he selfed fantasy flowers to get more fantasy flowers. This was early in the breeding for fantasy (about 10 years ago) and at that time the fantasy flowers rarely had pollen.

To complicate things, some have said that getting variegation depends a lot on the leaf on which the flower stalk emerges. Something about if there's strong variegation at the point where the flower stem emerges from the leaf then the seeds are more likely to produce variegation. Sounds to me like it would indicate sort of a chimera relationship. In other words, if the leaf doesn't have strong variegation where the flower stem emerges, one should not expect very many seedlings with variegation.

I swear there are a couple of different variegations out there, too. Streptocarpus candidus has a variegated pattern that's yellow and not the broad patches of white shown by Canterbury Surprise. S. candidus has these almost thin yellow areas. I crossed CS x variegated candidus and no variegation but I did get scented flowers. I selfed the seedlings and got no variegation. I was never able to self the variegated candidus, but it's flowering again, so I'm going to try again. The variegated candidus has very little if any pollen, so that's the main problem with it. Out of the 7 flowers on one stalk, only one had pollen.
Dale in Illinois
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Postby Gessiejunkie » Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:20 pm

Dale,

I would tend to agree with you on the different variegation part--I remember when I got Moonlit Magic in the mail thinking that that the pattern and color were quite different. CS and some of the Iced series I've had have "stripes", where MM is more yellow and mottled. After all, in violets we have "Tommie Lou", Mosaic, and crown varigegation patterns, so wouldn't it follow that streps could have different kinds, too?

It's interesting about the "seeds from the variegated part of the leaf"--it seems that I remember someone telling me that when they put down leaves of a variegated plant that the offspring that came from the variegated part of the leaf tended to variegate better. I was in Travis' greenhouse just last week, and he had grown quite a few of them for the Dixie Convention. I remember seeing one plant tagged as "Iced" something, and it was huge! The only variegation on it, though, was one small spot, about as big as your fingertip. This was on a plant that was over a foot across. He did have some other nice specimens, though, so I'm sure that one will decorate the compost pile.

I would love to get my hands on the variegated candidus! I saw one on Ebay last week that went for almost $25! Oh well--it will find it's way to my house sometime. In the meantime, I'm off to play with all the other pretties here...

Sharon
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fantasy x fantasy

Postby Xena » Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:32 pm

Sharon,

I haven't had much experience with fantasy but, do variegates.

My first hybrid litter was Iced Pink Flamingo x Cape Essence. I got a great deal of variegates pups- the ones that started out as varies were very weak and needing intensive care to keep them going. However the majority of varies came from solid colored seedlings that developed the variagation with the 3-4 and sometimes later leaves.

If I had culled early I would have lost out. These grew on to be very vigorous plants. I planted the seeds as soon as the pod ripened. They germinated within the first week - as most of mine do. The difference is the green seedlings will quickly outgrow them and they get lost in the forrest.

I do believe chances for variegation are greatest IF the seed parent is the varigate. I have done many vari to vari crosses and not gotten many
colored ofspring. The same pretty much holds if I breed a vari to a solid pollen donor.

However last year I did get variegated ofspring crossing IPF with Minuet.The variegated sibs are large and well marked. The green ones are smaller and have more"Minuet type foliage.

Though I haven't had any luck with Canterbury Surprise or Iced Amethyst Showoff, I do get variegated frequently from Iceberg Blues and Iced Texas Twilight.

I have not had success in increasing number of blossoms per stem but, have been able to change color and blossom form. The newest generations also bloom more often and usually put up more blossom stems. So that keeps be going.

Variegated Candidus is one of my favorites. I have a large specimen plant .Getting it to bloom is major difficulty. When it does, the pollen has produced good numbers for me. It has stubbornly refused to be a momma. The times I did pollinate it, it would abort after a few weeks.

However I was able to dry out one pod and planted a few seeds.From that I got two tiny variegates. One died despite my best efforts the other has very slowly become a copy of momma. I do not know if this was a selfing or from the cross I did with Cape Baby. Either way it did prove V.cand CAN be a parent.

I have a green leafed ofspring of CB x V.Cand., Wishbone who was a very early bloomer, on the small side and scented.

Right now I have about 3 dozen variegated infants from Gypsy Rose(variegated -dilute) x Very Nearly (Jeff Smiths) almost white, flowered variegate.This breeding was done hopefully to produce smaller variegates.

As for variegates I love them. The newer generations don't need babying. And yes there are several types of variegation in streps, and I do believe they all have their own rules for reproducing same. Lately, I have been finding dark dark green leaves with mottled white variegation,
etc.

I do think Variegates are the new frontier with so much gold to mine out of them. Xena
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Postby dale4streps » Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:37 pm

Xena, I'm thrilled to know you were successful making the variegated candidus a mother. That's excellent news and I'll be hopeful now that I have a dozen flowers on my plant. T-8 tubes seems to be the key for me. The "normal" shop lights made excellent plants, but I couldn't get flowers. When it bloomed last time under the new T-8 tubes, I was thrilled but needed the shelf for show plants. So I put the variegated candidus on my old Volkmann Brother's plant stand with regular fluorescent shop lights. Didn't bloom again until I put it back on the T-8 stand about 7 months later.

It's also good to hear you got variegated plants using IPF as the mother and Fernwood's Minuet as dad.
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